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netwarrior · Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: Potholes

Sorry about the X-posting on DBF about this topic but did anyone catch 'Tonight with Trevor McDonald' on STV tonight about the growing campaign from cyclists to get the government to do something about the increasing number of potholes?

Apparently, a growing number of car drivers have joined the campaign. Many have sued their local councils because of the damage to their vehicles. This has grown to such epidemic proportions that many local councils have now point blank refused to pay up.

Perhaps us motorcycles should join in.

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Rach · Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject:

Need to give "Big Err" a nudge he is our resident road man.

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Big Err · Club Racer Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Kinross

netwarrior wrote:

Many have sued their local councils because of the damage to their vehicles.

Perhaps us motorcycles should join in.

Always a contentious issue.

To be successful in suing a roads authority for damage caused by a roads defect you have to prove the roads authority was negligent . Claiming there was a defect there is not sufficient.

To be negligent proof is required that a defect was reported and not repaired within the stipulated time on the roads authority maintenance policy which will be based on the UK Code of Good Practice, or it must be proved that the roads authority did not carry out inspections in line with the same policy.

Taking a practical look at it, if in winter you have a wet day followed by freezing overnight conditions, ice can form within the road structure and effectively burst open a sizable pothole in the space of twelve hours! The road could have been inspected the day before and found to be ok, but 24 hours later you have a big hole. The authority has carried out its obligations to inspect the road and cannot be held liable for not reporting a pothole that wasn’t there at that time.

However, again in the winter, if that road is inspected after the pothole has formed and a works order is issued, the roads authority is still not liable as long as the time taken to repair the pothole is within the policy. If it is not, and you damage your vehicle the day after it should have been repaired, you have a claim that will probably be honoured.

During my time within highways maintenance, if the authority was going to court over a claim, it would do so only if the chance of winning was extremely high - ie all procedures followed correctly. Any claims that came where procedures were not met, the authority would pay out.

The sad thing is, our roads are knackered, especially local authority roads. If local authorities received half of the funding per mile that the trunk road operators have, you’d see a massive improvement. Fortunately I’m out of that game, because there is nothing more depressing than seeing the problems getting bigger and the budgets getting smaller.

netwarrior · Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Potholes

Big Err wrote:

netwarrior wrote:

Many have sued their local councils because of the damage to their vehicles.

Perhaps us motorcycles should join in.

Always a contentious issue.

To be successful in suing a roads authority for damage caused by a roads defect you have to prove the roads authority was negligent . Claiming there was a defect there is not sufficient.

To be negligent proof is required that a defect was reported and not repaired within the stipulated time on the roads authority maintenance policy which will be based on the UK Code of Good Practice, or it must be proved that the roads authority did not carry out inspections in line with the same policy.

Taking a practical look at it, if in winter you have a wet day followed by freezing overnight conditions, ice can form within the road structure and effectively burst open a sizable pothole in the space of twelve hours! The road could have been inspected the day before and found to be ok, but 24 hours later you have a big hole. The authority has carried out its obligations to inspect the road and cannot be held liable for not reporting a pothole that wasn’t there at that time.

However, again in the winter, if that road is inspected after the pothole has formed and a works order is issued, the roads authority is still not liable as long as the time taken to repair the pothole is within the policy. If it is not, and you damage your vehicle the day after it should have been repaired, you have a claim that will probably be honoured.

During my time within highways maintenance, if the authority was going to court over a claim, it would do so only if the chance of winning was extremely high - ie all procedures followed correctly. Any claims that came where procedures were not met, the authority would pay out.

The sad thing is, our roads are knackered, especially local authority roads. If local authorities received half of the funding per mile that the trunk road operators have, you’d see a massive improvement. Fortunately I’m out of that game, because there is nothing more depressing than seeing the problems getting bigger and the budgets getting smaller.

Lol! Join in the petition to pressure the government to force local authorities to maintain their local roads to a high standard - not join in by suing the local authorities I meant! Very Happy

netwarrior · Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Potholes

Quote:

The sad thing is, our roads are knackered, especially local authority roads. If local authorities received half of the funding per mile that the trunk road operators have, you’d see a massive improvement. Fortunately I’m out of that game, because there is nothing more depressing than seeing the problems getting bigger and the budgets getting smaller.

I remember a road traffic cop in Forfar telling me about an incident one winter when he noticed a lot of ice beneath a flyover on the A90 and contacted the roads department to ask if he could get a gritter out before an accident took place. The roads department official stated that their 'ice alert' alarm system hadn't registered that the temperature change was sufficient to authorise a gritter to come out. Without the system kicking in they couldn't authorise a gritter!

Meanwhile a gritter appeared over the flyover and the cop went up to talk to him. He asked if he could drop the some salt on the area of raod that was dangerous. The guy said he couldn't drop any salt on that section of the road because he was local authority and the road was a main section of a major trunk road which came under the jurisdiction of the Scottish Office or something and it was more than his job was worth to spread the salt.

Just then a vehicle hit the ice and spun and was a near thing regarding a collision. The cop asked if he and his colleague could hand shovel some salt onto the road in the interests of road safety. The gritter driver said he'd need to confirm this with his boss who wouldn't be happy getting woken up (this was around 06:30 in the morning).

The cop took the number and contacted the official through Dundee Police Control room and the official (who wasn't happy about getting woken up!) told the cops that their was no gritter in that area!

The cop was patched through to speak to the official directly and told him that there was indeed a gritter in the area, not only that but he was speaking directly to the gritter driver at the time of the phone call.

The official refused to spread the salt due to budgetary controls. He insisted the cop call the main authorities tasked to look after the major roads. The cop told him he had done so but that they had said without their activation system registering the temperature change necessary to authorise gritting they could do nothing!

The cop asked if he could hand shovel the salt in the interests of road safety and the official then point blank refused!!! Gaah

With that sort of bureaucracy there's little chance of common sense prevailing.

I take your point about how the effects of freezing water can destroy the road surface or the effects of any kind of sudden or prolonged inclement weather conditions but as the Trevor McDonald programme showed - and the website makes clear -

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- cyclists and motorists using the same routes all across the country have continually reported large potholes to their local authorities which have gone unresolved for many months and often years.

I put this post up on DBF also - check their responses - many have reported very bad potholing on routes they use frequently but have found little improvement.

Surely, the local authorities should be out their checking their local roads and taking a proactive rather than a reactive initiative to te problem - or perhaps we should lend them a bike or motorcycle for the day?

Don't get me started on the dangerous practice of gravelling roads in the summer!!!!! Gaah

maddog · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:04 am Post subject:

why do thay keep putting antiskid toping on roads [orange shite] when it comes off all the time

why do thay put speed humps next to potholes

netwarrior · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:53 am Post subject:

maddog wrote:

why do thay keep putting antiskid toping on roads [orange shite] when it comes off all the time

why do thay put speed humps next to potholes

Good point maddog. What really annoys me is that we are amongst the most taxed nation in Europe. We pay community tax for local services (let's hope Alex Salmond lives up to his election promise to abolish community tax) and most local authorities announce a surplus each year, we pay tax at the petrol pump, we pay (controversial, perhaps illegal) tolls for crossing bridges, we pay road tax on our vehicles (I drive a car and ride a bike yet neither is on the road at the same time and both need taxed independently), we have (so called) congestion taxes being introduced for certain cities and motorway tolls are introduced in certain parts of the country. Gaah

Now while some of these taxes are paid on a cost per use basis (such as congestion and motorway tolls) we have no choice but to pay for the others (and these taxes rise continually) yet we have the worst transport and road systems in Europe! Gaah

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Big Err · Club Racer Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Kinross

netwarrior wrote:

Join in the petition to pressure the government to force local authorities to maintain their local roads to a high standard

No, I think the best approach is to lobby the government to put the money raised by road related taxes back into roads engineering, education, enforcement (the human kind) and encouragement.

Big Err · Club Racer Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Kinross

maddog wrote:

why do thay keep putting antiskid toping on roads [orange shite] when it comes off all the time

It shouldn't come off if its laid properly. Bloody expensive stuff though. Should only be used where its really needed.

Big Err · Club Racer Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Kinross

netwarrior wrote:

an incident one winter when he noticed a lot of ice beneath a flyover on the A90 and contacted the roads department to ask if he could get a gritter out before an accident took place. The roads department official stated that their 'ice alert' alarm system hadn't registered that the temperature change was sufficient to authorise a gritter to come out. Without the system kicking in they couldn't authorise a gritter!

Never worked in that area so cant comment on the story, but can easily believe it to be true. In my time the unofficial rule was 'when in doubt, send them out' when it came to gritting. On occassions you got it wrong and had the auditors (people in comfortable 9 to 5 jobs with little appreciation of the real world outside their offices) breathing down your neck demanding why the roads were gritted when all the sensors indicated temps above freezing.

When the Scottish Exec decided to 'sell off' the trunk road contracts the barriers were created. I recall reporting defects to the new trunk road operators (for the sake of safety) and got told to 'stick to your own roads'.

Other problems with Winter Maintenance occurs in the former Tayside councils due to their overnight 'shutdown' policy where no gritting action occurs between 2300 and 0500 (I think - check their websites). In Fife we have always operated an 'open road' policy of 24 hour coverage for winter gritting and snow clearing.

Err

These postings are based from my own experiences and may not reflect the current policies of my current or previous employers. They are also here for the benefit of the readers in order that they may get an understanding of how things work regardless of my agreement or otherwise. If you wish to rant please save it for the pub. I submit to this forum in my own time and therefore do not get the luxury of being paid whilst being submitted to rants.

Thanks

Big Err · Club Racer Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Kinross

Big Err wrote:

netwarrior wrote:

an incident one winter when he noticed a lot of ice beneath a flyover on the A90 and contacted the roads department to ask if he could get a gritter out before an accident took place. The roads department official stated that their 'ice alert' alarm system hadn't registered that the temperature change was sufficient to authorise a gritter to come out. Without the system kicking in they couldn't authorise a gritter!

Never worked in that area so cant comment on the story, but can easily believe it to be true. In my time the unofficial rule was 'when in doubt, send them out' when it came to gritting. On occassions you got it wrong and had the auditors (people in comfortable 9 to 5 jobs with little appreciation of the real world outside their offices) breathing down your neck demanding why the roads were gritted when all the sensors indicated temps above freezing.

When the Scottish Exec decided to 'sell off' the trunk road contracts the barriers were created. I recall reporting defects to the new trunk road operators (for the sake of safety) and got told to 'stick to your own roads'.

Other problems with Winter Maintenance occurs in the former Tayside councils due to their overnight 'shutdown' policy where no gritting action occurs between 2300 and 0500 (I think - check their websites). In Fife we have always operated an 'open road' policy of 24 hour coverage for winter gritting and snow clearing.

Err

These postings are based from my own experiences and may not reflect the current policies of my current or previous employers. They are also here for the benefit of the readers in order that they may get an understanding of how things work regardless of my agreement or otherwise. If you wish to rant please save it for the pub. I submit to this forum in my own time and therefore do not get the luxury of being paid whilst being exposed to rants.

Thanks

netwarrior · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Potholes

Big Err wrote:

They are also here for the benefit of the readers in order that they may get an understanding of how things work regardless of my agreement or otherwise. If you wish to rant please save it for the pub. I submit to this forum in my own time and therefore do not get the luxury of being paid whilst being exposed to rants.

Some very interesting points raised there in that posting. No rant intended, certainly not from me, and I think everyone understands how the bureaucratic mahcine works (or fails to) and none of the points raised are aimed directly at you of course, rather reading through all the posts on the subject, general frustration at the state of our roads (given what we are all charged individually to drive/ride on them) is what people are venting! Very Happy

I take you're point though about not ring fencing funds that should be allocated specifically for road improvements. Unfortunately, as sensible as this idea is, where there's money available - the government nor local authorities seem to work that way! Confused

I for one support the cyclists campaign in the same way I support the spills kills campaign

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There are a couple of things I've always wondered about though that perhaps you could expand on?

How do the sensors that measure road temperature work? Are they based along certain routes and designed to measure road temperature or do they measure air temperature at set points? It's always been a bit of a mystery to me. Shocked

Also, why are loose chippings so prevelant in the summer months? Are they a result of incorrect road maintenance techniques or are they designed to be that way? I've never understood why they lay that stuff on road surfaces. it's downright dangerous not only to bikes but to cars also?

PS Rant in the pub - sacrilage. The pub is a much too venerable and hallowed place for such things. Laughing

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suzibabs · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject:

Big Err wrote:

maddog wrote:

why do thay keep putting antiskid toping on roads [orange shite] when it comes off all the time

It shouldn't come off if its laid properly. Bloody expensive stuff though. Should only be used where its really needed.

apparently can only be laid when the road surface is at a certain temp (listeded to a radio 4 prog what about it - oh the excitment!) and as certain individuals dont/wont consider the road conditions and lay it anyway then it just crumbles and is more dangerous than the original surface

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maddog · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject:

Big Err wrote:

maddog wrote:

why do thay keep putting antiskid toping on roads [orange shite] when it comes off all the time

It shouldn't come off if its laid properly. Bloody expensive stuff though. Should only be used where its really needed.

come to dunfermline where any where and it off in lumps
also down here thay try and dry a wet road then lay. think its great here
because its at lights,bends, and now bus stops

jpaterson · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:18 am Post subject:

don't get me started on Perth's road, oh well just a little rant ...
That Glasgow road is a disgrace, especially in the wet, it's more akin to a motoX track, guess they would rather spend the money on hanging baskets.
Pavements jutting out into the road, big white shiny mini-roundabouts placed on totally inappropriate roads, looks like a carting track in places.
I never ever speed in town I hasten to add, all that stuff is just plain unsave in places.
Broxden roundabout, ok they are "fixing" it now, but only because lorries used to topple over due to camber and prevaling wind, not cos the inside lane used to resemble a farm track it was worn out a breaking up, can imagine a few folk slapped there way round that.
and to finish the rant, I spotted a dirty great pothole on that roundabout right on the exit line for heading down into glasgow road, it was the size of a dinner plate and although I never stopped to look (as I was squeezing my cheeks together at the time) it looked about 4-5 inches deep, the eagle eyed may have spotted it and adjusted line in time, but damn me, a few days later when they went to a single line traffic round there, the lane for the traffic was right over that pothole. I do hope they fixed it, eitherwise someone is going to come a cropper.
I have been away for a bit now so this info a few weeks old, maybe it's fixed.

Thank you for rant
Cheers
John