PERTHSHIRE BIKERS FORUM :: View topic - Appeal for information from the Pitlochry area

netwarrior

Just had a thought that I'd use the forum for a bit of networking in the Pitlochry area.

My elderly mother had a high powered air rifle pellet fired through her livingroom window in James Place last week. The pellet was powerful enough to penetrate both layers of the double glazing leaving a neat hole right through. The pellet still hasn't been located.

Shortly afterwards, a neighbour in the same area, had a hole put right through the skin of his car door, a new car to all accounts.

Needless to say, the mindless idiot who fired those shots could have done some real damage using a weapon that powerful.

My guess is that the shot fired through my mother's window was done from the main road about 10 - 15 ft away. The damage done means that the range of that weapon is comparable to a hand gun!

The Police were informed but their investigations drew a blank.

I thought I'd post this on the forum for two reasons:

1) So that anyone in the area who uses this forum can keep their eyes peeled in case they fall victim to a similar attack (be particularly mindful if you have pets!).

2) If anyone saw anything, or sees anything in the future, either drop me a PM or contact the local Police with a description.

The sooner there's an outright ban on owning these weapons in the UK the better!

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'Never put your bike anywhere that your brain hasn't been 5 seconds before!' (

Rach · Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject:

Yes agree there, I have a scar 1" under my eye from a air dart fired by some yobs in Leeds.

Very very lucky girl.

Confused

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suzibabs · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:03 am Post subject:

my Mum was on the top deck of a bus in Eastbourne when she was shot at my one of these guns, shattered the glass but luckily she wasn't hurt just badly shaken up. Mindless idiots Pissed off

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TINBITS · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject:

It could have been fired a fair distance away.and was probably an air rifle.rather than a pistol. the legal limit in power terms for a pistol is 6ft lbs of pressure.. in an air rifle the limit is 12ft lbs ..pistols are difficult to "hop -up"
although some co2 powered pistols can be re-valved for quite an increase in power. an air rifle can be easily modified to double it's power. the shot could have traveled 100mts easily with enough power to seriously injure anyone it hit...I have come across co2 /nitrogen powered air rifles with modified valves /reservoirs that put out 88ft lbs of power and in .25 calibre would easily kill a man at 100mts +... fitted with a sound suppressor and quality optics. there is no recoil and it makes less noise than a Nun farting in church.
Pffffffffffttt......Oh i used to shoot sporting air rifle type events like field target meets etc..that's the reason i know so much...... Rolling Eyes

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JUST SHOW ME THE DAMMNED CONTROLS AND DIAL 999

netwarrior · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:

TINBITS wrote:

It could have been fired a fair distance away.and was probably an air rifle.rather than a pistol. the legal limit in power terms for a pistol is 6ft lbs of pressure.. in an air rifle the limit is 12ft lbs ..pistols are difficult to "hop -up"
although some co2 powered pistols can be re-valved for quite an increase in power. an air rifle can be easily modified to double it's power. the shot could have traveled 100mts easily with enough power to seriously injure anyone it hit...I have come across co2 /nitrogen powered air rifles with modified valves /reservoirs that put out 88ft lbs of power and in .25 calibre would easily kill a man at 100mts +... fitted with a sound suppressor and quality optics. there is no recoil and it makes less noise than a Nun farting in church.
Pffffffffffttt......Oh i used to shoot sporting air rifle type events like field target meets etc..that's the reason i know so much...... Rolling Eyes

The Police seem to think that the weapon used was fired by joy riders inside a car and that the pellet that hit my mothers window was probably not aimed specifically at her.

Still it's frightening that anyone could be so irresponsible and that weapons of the power and velocity you mention are available to the general public without a licence of some sort.

I'd bet from the distance it was fired, you'd be hard pushed to penetrate both plates of glass using a shotgun firing No.6 or 7 birdshot at that distance so it shows how potentially lethal the weapon used actually was.

I hope the cops get these guys before they cause real damage or heartache. Sad

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'Never put your bike anywhere that your brain hasn't been 5 seconds before!' (

F41NXS · Moto GP Champion Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 536

I feel sorry for you and your mother, and agree that the person that done this act should be castrated

But I get pissed off listening to people asking for outright bans on guns due to someone mis-using one.

ok we ban guns, we ban knives, perhaps we ban belts if someone is strangled by one?, what we gonna ban next? all bikes because a ned steals one and due to inexperience runs over a 3 year old kid.

its not the instruments involved ITS THE FOOLISH PEOPLE USING THEM.

if the POLICE got off there backsides and done their job to a better degree and caught these people our streets would be much safer.

Im sorry if you are offended by this, I am shocked that this guy done what he done and I would personally love to get my hands on him, but simply to ban things is not the answer.

We need to find the guy/girl involved, find out - age, find out who sold the gun IF under age, ensure the police act and ensure proper punishing and sentence is given, not a holiday to florida to see mickey mouse.

and for everyone that takes time to read this, perhaps take a little more time and write to your MP with regards to this.

this is not intended to offend, and again I do feel for the Victims, but i will not stand up and shout ban this ban that due to some little ned mis-using one.

We going to ask for a ban on motorcycles next?

get the police of their backsides and get them doing the job they are paid to do

netwarrior · Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject:

F41NXS wrote:

I feel sorry for you and your mother, and agree that the person that done this act should be castrated

Castrated....you mean apprehended don't you? Very Happy

F41NXS wrote:

But I get pissed off listening to people asking for outright bans on guns due to someone mis-using one.

I can understand that but what practical use does anyone have for owning a gun or a knife outside occupational use that is?

F41NXS wrote:

ok we ban guns, we ban knives, perhaps we ban belts if someone is strangled by one?, what we gonna ban next? all bikes because a ned steals one and due to inexperience runs over a 3 year old kid.

No, that's a disproportional response. It's like saying we should ban swimming if someone drowns - it's a disproportional response to the problem. A bike (or a car for that matter) isn't designed as a weapon. True they may be used in that context but then I don't feel the law is strict enough under those conditions. If someone steps out in front of a motorist who is driving within the law then that is an accident. An unfortunate accident but an accident nevertheless.

If someone steals a bike or drives a car while under the influence of drink or drugs and kills someone, then the law should not reflect that offence in the same way that it does the former accident. In the latter case the vehicle is being illegally driven and done so with reckless abandonment.

In fact, there is a campaign currently underway led I believe by the mother of the teacher killed last year by a disqualified driver on his way for a court appearance for another driving offence in England to lobby for such offences not be be treated as accidents but as manlsaughter. I'd give her my full support.

F41NXS wrote:

its not the instruments involved ITS THE FOOLISH PEOPLE USING THEM.

Yes, you're right of course but there's an argument that the type of mindless idiot who will gravitate towards irresponsible use of any weapon, with little regard for the consequences, should not be able to access these items quite so freely as they can at the moment. Also, if they are not prepared to take responsibility for their actions then society should ensure tougher penalties. In the case of car crime (where the vehicle is driven without due care an attention or under the influence of drinks or drugs, or when stolen etc.) evidence shows that the majority of criminals are repeat offenders.

F41NXS wrote:

Im sorry if you are offended by this, I am shocked that this guy done what he done and I would personally love to get my hands on him, but simply to ban things is not the answer.

No offence taken. That's the purpose of a forum. It provides a platform for a healthy debate to explore others viewpoints. Very Happy

I agree a knee jerk reaction to move to ban things is bad but why would anyone want to carry or use a knife or a gun on the streets of the UK. Just doing so can be lethal for the victims of such crime. Had that air gun pellet, as one member pointed out on the forum, hit someone it could have easily killed them. I think just possession of these items should lead to a statutory prison sentence.

The Dunblane massacre was committed by someone who legally held firearms. A young child was killed on the streets of Glasgow last year by someone armed with an air rifle. A police officer has just been shot dead over the weekend by someone with a firearm. These are just three cases where had the weapons not been legally available, these tragedies could have been avoided.

Outside legitimate sporting use, these weapons shouldn't be available. Why would anyone want to own one?

We have to decide as a society which is more important. A enjoyment of a minority group or a the safety of the public at large.

F41NXS wrote:

We need to find the guy/girl involved, find out - age, find out who sold the gun IF under age, ensure the police act and ensure proper punishing and sentence is given, not a holiday to florida to see mickey mouse.

Yes, I'm with you completely there. Illegal supply of any weapon should carry a much stiffer penalty than it does, as does being in possession of such a weapon ouside an authorised facaility (such as a firing range, clay pigeon shoot etc.).

F41NXS wrote:

and for everyone that takes time to read this, perhaps take a little more time and write to your MP with regards to this.

I'm with you there also. The Scottish Parliment however choose to get soft on gun crime. Giulliani took New York City from the worse crime capital in the US to one of the best by being tough on crime and operating a zero tollerence policy.

F41NXS wrote:

this is not intended to offend, and again I do feel for the Victims, but i will not stand up and shout ban this ban that due to some little ned mis-using one.

Again no offence taken. It's only by listening to the opinion of others that a balanced viewpoint is reached. Misuse of a weapon, such as a gun is a bit of a misnomer though. There's an argument that firing a gun is consistent with it's design and that it is used exactly as intended. Of course, a soldier firing a weapon on the battlefront is justifiable but a civilian firing a weapon is doing exactly the same thing albeit within a completley different context but it isn't the use of the firearm that's wrong its the social context. Moreover, a soldier is heavily restrained regarding auhtorised use of a weapon i.e. the weapon and the responsibility are one in the same as we have seen with legal actions against soldiers and RUC Officers in Northern Ireland, Gibralter and more recently in Iraq (although admittedly, the same justice system doesn't seem to apply to the Metropolitan Police which I suspect is more of a political than a legal issue)

A civilian firing a weapon has no such moral restraints.

The point is knives and guns are designed to kill, not designed as entertainment. Cars, bikes or even belts for that matter, aren't designed to kill (although they can become lethal in the wrong hands) but then it's context of their legitimate use that then becomes the issue.

F41NXS wrote:

We going to ask for a ban on motorcycles next?

That's taking the argument to a rediculous degree to be fair - although one top cop tried to push for this - at least in National Parks. see:

Only registered users can see links on this forum!
Register or Login on forum!

The original blog has (rightly so) been taken down due to the controvesy this idiot sparked.

Unless you are involved in the legitimate sporting use of weapons such as rifles and guns there is no safe place to use them. They certainly aren't appropriate for public places. Why would anyone want to own them. Even in the US, and in states like Texas who have liberal gun laws, weapons are carefully licenced and very few individuals have a permit to carry them. Crying or Very sad

If individuals are that bent on weaponry, then why not join the armed forces. Oh of course, I forgot, their targets shoot back!

_________________
'Never put your bike anywhere that your brain hasn't been 5 seconds before!' (

TINBITS · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject:

Blimey netwarrior m8 ...there are at least 500 well chosen words there ,
I take it you have some kind of life ,and dont just sit in front of two monitors
speed typing on two different forums, using two keyboards one-handed?
I'll bet you also play flamenco guitar like paco de lucia. and make exquisite military models in Nano scale. possibly also a super surgeon who can change heart valves and goose a theatre nurse simultainiously....I too am ambidextrous, i can pick my nose with either hand.. oh nicely written BTW.. Wink

_________________
JUST SHOW ME THE DAMMNED CONTROLS AND DIAL 999

netwarrior · Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject:

TINBITS wrote:

Blimey netwarrior m8 ...there are at least 500 well chosen words there ,
I take it you have some kind of life ,and dont just sit in front of two monitors
speed typing on two different forums, using two keyboards one-handed?
I'll bet you also play flamenco guitar like paco de lucia. and make exquisite military models in Nano scale. possibly also a super surgeon who can change heart valves and goose a theatre nurse simultainiously....I too am ambidextrous, i can pick my nose with either hand.. oh nicely written BTW.. Wink

ROTFL!!!!! Very Happy

Lol! I've been killing some time on DBF & PBF lately although technically shouldn't be!!!!!!!!

All started when I tried to get my posts up on DBF to graduate from my newbie status after admin moved the forum - then I discovered Rach had set up this forum! Smile

Seriously behind now though and need to crack on with what I really should be doing!!!!!!!! Wink

_________________
'Never put your bike anywhere that your brain hasn't been 5 seconds before!' (

F41NXS · Moto GP Champion Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 536

Wow ! you certainaly kept that short

Welcome to the U.K. (the Nanny state)

I always thought knives were "designed" to CUT! not "kill" but you learn new things every day.

just one thing? how many rounds does a soldier need to fire? with regards to distance (100 yards/200 yards) and what grouping does he need to be deemed competent by the RO? you may be suprised or indeed "shocked"

Once (we)? get this outright ban on firearms! are (we) next going to cancel the 2012 olympics? and Commonwealth games also? Whilst our pistol shooters are forced abroad to train (Switzerland), with no funding.
It seems the criminal can easily purchase a firearm (mainly handgun) in any City and instead of targeting this, Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety

It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

So again get the Police of their backsides and have them earn their Salary, cracking down on ilegal guns, drugs, anti social behavior etc or indeed the crazy life threatening maniacs that drive with small numberplates!

netwarrior · Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:

F41NXS wrote:

I always thought knives were "designed" to CUT! not "kill" but you learn new things every day.

Good posting F41NXS, lot's of interesting things there.

Knives have many legitimate uses. Buthchers use knives to bone meat, Chef's to cut vegetables, game dealers to skin game but these are tools and it would be rediculous to ban these. However, the vast majority of people who use these do so in proper context and with a high regard to safety. They certainly don't go out on a Saturday night carrying one of these on the vague chance that they might come across a roast, vegetable or animal carcass requiring trimming, dicing or skinning. Very Happy

Many domestic woundings and killings are carried out using these type of knives for sure and that can't be legislated against.

The vast majority of knives taken off criminals in the street however tend to be large survival knives, martial arts weapons or commando type knives! In the case if the latter two - these are clearly designed as weapons to kill. There can be no justification for carrying a knife like that as there can be no justification for legitimate use by a civillian. These are the types of knives that should be banned in my opinion. The law however, should be far tougher for anyone carrying any kind of knife in a public place and even tougher if a knife has been used in an assault.

F41NXS wrote:

just one thing? how many rounds does a soldier need to fire? with regards to distance (100 yards/200 yards) and what grouping does he need to be deemed competent by the RO? you may be suprised or indeed "shocked"

Weapon competence isn't the issue here. Regardless what a Range Officer may say. I'm referring to how the legislative system moves against soldiers who have used weapons in a theatre of operations.

The IRA shootings in Gibrarltar some years back, the RUC 'shoot to Kill' policy, the Scots Guardsmen who shot at a vehicle in Northern Ireland all were considered illegal under legitimate rules of engagement and resulted in court cases, public enquiries or prison cases. These are not unique cases - many others have resulted from the war in Iraq. Crying or Very sad

The point I'm making here is that the legislative system moves harshly againts those in situations similar to those described above yet civillians involved in gun crime often get off lightly by comparisson. Let's not forget that the military situations described involved known terrorists or situations where soldiers thought their lives were in danger yet most civilian cases of gun crimes are premeditaded cases by and largely conducted against innocent people (or innocent civillians are caught in the crossfire).

F41NXS wrote:

Once (we)? get this outright ban on firearms! are (we) next going to cancel the 2012 olympics? and Commonwealth games also? Whilst our pistol shooters are forced abroad to train (Switzerland), with no funding.

I think I've already covered that. Of course not, any more than we would hope to prevent any other legitimate sporting use of firearms. Many Scottish estates for example rely upon game shooting and deer stalking for their income which contributes considerably to the Scottish economy.

However, legitimate sporting use of firearms in whatever context is highly controlled and those that take part normally highly responsible individuals.

The banning of firearms haven't effected those communities but it has ended the 'leisure' based firearms clubs where members use military type weapons to meet and pop off numerous rounds at Fig 11 targets etc.

Both tragic shootings of civilians in the UK (Hungerford and Dunblane) involved members of such clubs with legally held weapons. How much anecdotal evidence do we need before we ban such weapons.

A certain mentality gravitate toward the fascination of carrying rambo type knives and firearms and I'm suggesting that we should NOT make it easy for these people to obtain them. :mad:

F41NXS wrote:

It seems the criminal can easily purchase a firearm (mainly handgun) in any City and instead of targeting this, Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety

It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

So again get the Police of their backsides and have them earn their Salary, cracking down on ilegal guns, drugs, anti social behavior etc or indeed the crazy life threatening maniacs that drive with small numberplates!

I don't know of any restriction placed on farmers or gamekeepers legally obtaining the firerams that they need to carry out their duties.

The illegal arms trade has been by and largely driven by the opening up of Eastern European barriers and as such an illegal activity (like drug trafficking and illgal immigration) and as such very difficult to control.

Many of the weapons used in ganlgand shootings are replica pistols and air pistols still available legally, which have been illegally converted - which is just another reason as far as I'm concerned to ban them. The vast majority of weapons used in armed robberies are shotguns stolen from farms etc. (all the more reason to ensure tight control by legitimate owners regarding security).

As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that legally held firearms are widely used in such circumstances. Rolling Eyes

We can't legislate against criminal intentions but we can legislate against needless death and injury caused by firearm ownership that isn't necessary in the first instance.

You might be surprised to know that I held both a firearm and shotgun licence for many years (they were necessary for my work at that time) however as soon as I changed professions I had no legitimate reason to renew them and let them lapse. I can't understand why anyone without a legitimate use for a firearm would need to retain them whatsoever!

One of the biggest problems we face in the UK is liberalist attitudes with 'do-gooders' jumping out of the closet trying to protect the rights of mindless idiots, criminals and irresponsible individuals. They wouldn't be quite so liberal if they were the victims of such crimes - believe me. Shocked

Anyway, what's all this (as interesting as it is) got to do with motorcycling! Question

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'Never put your bike anywhere that your brain hasn't been 5 seconds before!' (

F41NXS · Moto GP Champion Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 536

netwarrior wrote:

Weapon competence isn't the issue here. Regardless what a Range Officer may say. I'm referring to how the legislative system moves against soldiers who have used weapons in a theatre of operations.

Competence isnt an issue???

Competence is always the issue,
regardless of what topic, whether it be your job, or indeed the owning and handling of firearms
are you happy that troops are poorly trained and indeed that their training is limited and cut short?

Seems even on here people are subscribing to "Bike Safe" again to increase their Competence on a bike.

At work your competence is always being assessed and in all parts of life Competence is always the issue

Its about time we had the Competence of Police checked and indeed made them accountable for the incompetence in there work,

again instead of running around banning everything to make the job of the police easier have them off their backsides catching criminals, cutting down on drug smuggling and yes ILLEGAL firearms.

netwarrior wrote:

Both tragic shootings of civilians in the UK (Hungerford and Dunblane) involved members of such clubs with legally held weapons. How much anecdotal evidence do we need before we ban such weapons.

I was wondering when this would come up, as yes it was a tragedy both accounts were, but every time someone shouts for a ban they bring this up, automatic weapons have been banned due to Hungerford and indeed some semi auto’s. Again with Dunblane some handguns have again been banned which limits the type of handguns that can be used.

Why do you not look at the amount of people killed with illegal weapons of which these killings are DAILY rather than 2 incidents which were decades ago where tighter regulations have indeed already been put in place because of these 2 mentioned incidents.

Again it is down to poor policing, The police would rather sit in a car waiting to pounce on the motorist rather than police the violence on our streets.

If caught with an Illegal handgun as far as I remember its an automatic 5 year sentence but still that seems not to be a deterrent.

netwarrior wrote:

The banning of firearms haven't effected those communities but it has ended the 'leisure' based firearms clubs where members use military type weapons to meet and pop off numerous rounds at Fig 11 targets etc.

I think you will find the majority of clubs are extremely strict with the use of firearms with fully trained and indeed Competent R.O.’s
The Competence and training of club members is also an ongoing assessment. You have to remember Stalkers and Farmers are also members of these clubs to ensure their shooting skills are highly practiced and their rifles zero’d in before shooting on land and forestry where the “one shot” must be exact so as not to allow suffering or un-needed suffering with the life stalk or indeed vermin.

netwarrior wrote:

I don't know of any restriction placed on farmers or gamekeepers legally obtaining the firerams that they need to carry out their duties.

I suggest you then speak with farmers, gamekeepers, stalkers, and legally licensed firearm holders and they will tell you of endless restrictions in all aspects. But then you should already know this.

netwarrior wrote:

If individuals are that bent on weaponry, then why not join the armed forces. Oh of course, I forgot, their targets shoot back!

I think there is a lot more to the armed forces than just simply shooting a weapon, and to think of the armed forces in that way could be seen as an insult to the people in the forces. I think the reason for the reduction on new recruits has a lot to do with tightening regulations, extremely poor salary and T&C’s.(not to mention the merging of regiments).

But yes I agree the targets will shoot back, many extremely good with the use and handling of weapons because they have used them all their life.

Last of all

netwarrior wrote:

My guess is that the shot fired through my mother's window was done from the main road about 10 - 15 ft away. The damage done means that the range of that weapon is comparable to a hand gun!

The Police were informed but their investigations drew a blank.

I hope you have not let the Police of lightly with their investigations if indeed they have investigated.
If this is going on in the Pitlochry area the police should be doing there job, Policing the streets coming down tight and putting the message across that this behavior is unacceptable. Pitlochry is a nice area and busy with tourists at this time of year lets keep it that way.

Batman · Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject:

woah getting dizzy with all this reading, must take you too hours to to type us those replies Laughing

netwarrior

F41NXS wrote:

Competence isnt an issue???

Competence is always the issue,
regardless of what topic, whether it be your job, or indeed the owning and handling of firearms
are you happy that troops are poorly trained and indeed that their training is limited and cut short?

With respect F41NXS you are going right off topic here. Competence may well be an issue in the context you are introducing but this thread was originally about mindless idiots firing an air rifle in the Pitlochry area.

Competence isn't an issue in this context. Most idiots purhcasing these weapons haven't had a proper day's training in how to use firearms of any sort in their life. Nor do they probably have the inclination to.

It doesn't require any degree of competence to seriously injure or kill someone with an air rifle or any other weapon for that matter.

The young child killed last year in Glasgow is testimont to this. As are the various teachers and pupils that have been murdered by young thugs carrying knives in various parts of the country.

I think we as a Society have a duty of care to ensure that we analyse and act upon this kind of anectdotal evidence. That's what I'm saying.

F41NXS wrote:

I was wondering when this would come up, as yes it was a tragedy both accounts were, but every time someone shouts for a ban they bring this up, automatic weapons have been banned due to Hungerford and indeed some semi auto’s. Again with Dunblane some handguns have again been banned which limits the type of handguns that can be used.

Why though, would anyone want to own and fire semi automatic weapons or combat type handguns outside a Military of Police environment. These weapons certainly haven't been designed with a sporting application in mind. You don't go shooting grouse with a Kalashnikov or rabbits with a 44 magnum!

F41NXS wrote:

Why do you not look at the amount of people killed with illegal weapons of which these killings are DAILY rather than 2 incidents which were decades ago where tighter regulations have indeed already been put in place because of these 2 mentioned incidents.

I've already mentioned this and it's out of context of the posting again. The idiots who are riding around Pitlochry firing air rifles aren't using illegally held weapons.

The increase in illegal firearms are nothing to do with the bans imposed after the shooting tradgedies mentioned. They are as a direct result of an opening of borders across the European Union, particularly from Eastern European countries. Not only has this increased illegal weapons but drug and people trafficking also.

Many of these weapons appearing on our streets are relatively 'low cost' converted replica and air weapons currently legally obtainable in the UK.

You can't legislate against illegal activites only enforce the law in these cases but you can legislate against the sale of large knives and airguns (or other weapons) and make them just a little harder to obtain.

Again you have to base a repsonse on the evidence available.

F41NXS wrote:

If this is going on in the Pitlochry area the police should be doing there job, Policing the streets coming down tight and putting the message across that this behavior is unacceptable. Pitlochry is a nice area and busy with tourists at this time of year lets keep it that way.

It's difficult to understand what more they can do. They've increased patrols in the area, they've appealed for information etc. I guess unless someone comes forward with a sense of public safety or civic duty and reports the individuals concerned, or the Police actually catch them in the act it's hard to understand what more they can do to be honest? Question

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F41NXS · Moto GP Champion Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 536